By Rohat Alakom 06/11/2024
This interview, conducted in 1962, is reaching the Kurdish community for the first time through Botan Times. This recording, which will be useful for researchers doing research on Kurds, is also a nice surprise for fans of Dr. Kamiran Ali Bedirhan who know his work. While we express our gratitude and respect to Mr. Alakom for this research, we present the article and the entire interview both in video and in writing.
Botan Times
I first encountered news about this interview between Barbro Karabuda and Kamuran Bedirkhan in the Swedish newspaper Dagens Nyheter: “Television Interview about Iraq”. The news was published alongside a photograph of Barbro Karabuda and Kamuran Bedirkhan. Before the documentary/interview broadcast, the news stated: “Tonight at 22:10-22:25, television will broadcast a current affairs interview where Barbro Karabuda speaks with Kurdish prince Kamuran Bedirkhan about the critical situation in Iraq.
Dr. Bedirkhan is the leader of the Kurdish freedom struggle outside Kurdistan. He previously presented his people’s demands to United Nations circles in New York. The interview was conducted in Paris for Swedish Television and was previously sold to French Television” [1]. This news later appeared before me twice more, once when I was preparing an article about Barbro Karabuda [2], and once when I was writing a book about Kurdish issues in Swedish media [3].
The questions and answers are in French. Barbro Karabuda asks about 16 questions to Kamuran Bedirkhan, and he provides answers to these questions. The initial questions cover topics such as population, Kurdish neighbors, and Kurdish origins. Several questions concern the situation of Kurds in the South and Mustafa Barzani. Questions about autonomy and independence also become interview topics. Some questions address Kurdish-American relations and Kamuran Bedirkhan’s role in these relations. The day after this interview was broadcast, the Svenska Dagbladet newspaper reminded its readers in a few words about the importance of the interview regarding Kurdish history and their struggles for freedom [4]. As we can see in the image below and in the interview image, Barbro Karabuda is wearing different clothes.
[Photo: A photograph of Kamuran Bedirkhan and Barbro Karabuda before the interview broadcast (Dagens Nyheter, 20-10-1962)]
It appears that Barbro Karabuda and linguist Kamuran Bedirkhan met several times in Paris and Sweden. Kamuran Bedirkhan came to Sweden in 1971 and gave Kurdish language courses to a group of Kurds there. During this time, an interview was conducted with him and published in a Swedish newspaper [5]. When we published some photographs of Kamuran Bedirkhan from his time teaching in Sweden via Twitter a few years ago, it attracted much attention from Kurds.
Who is Barbro Karabuda? Barbro Karabuda (1935-2017) was a Swedish journalist and writer. She married Turkish photographer and writer Güneş Karabuda (1933-2018). Before marriage, her surname was Gidlund. They met in Paris. Barbro Karabuda wrote dozens of books and published hundreds of articles until her death. A fundamental topic in her publications was the Kurdish situation. In 1960, she published her book titled “East of Euphrates – In the Land of Kurds” [6]. Four years ago, I emphasized the importance of this work with a tweet: “Swedish writer Barbro Karabuda broke through the wall of taboo and silence that surrounded the Kurdish issue in Turkey with her pen in the 1960s” (27-5-2020). After this book, she was constantly under surveillance by Turkish police and intelligence forces, and her entries and exits from Turkey often involved arrests and interrogations. She was an opposition and brave journalist. She always raised her voice for Kurdish rights and the protection of their culture. She became acquainted with Kurdish notables, becoming friends with people like Kamuran Bedirkhan, Tarik Ziya Ekinci, Yaşar Kemal, and Selahaddin Rastgeldi. Her husband Güneş Karabuda (1933-2018) was a photographer and writer. He made many documentary films with his wife. A year before Barbro Karabuda’s death, I prepared a lengthy biography about her and published it in Kurdish History magazine. She was very ill at that time. Therefore, she couldn’t respond to me. But after some time, she sent me this message via email: “Dear Rohat. Heartfelt thanks for your article in Kurdish History. What an unprecedented research work! I would have thanked you sooner, but I was/am ill. Wishing you all the very best!” (31-3-2016). It seems the article had made her very happy, as she expressed her joy with this message. There are some interesting sources about the lives of Barbro Karabuda and her husband Güneş Karabuda [7].
In 1961, Barbro Karabuda went to the Ağrı and Cizre region with a team. The team consisted of Barbro Karabuda, her brother Krister, her husband Güneş Karabuda, and famous photographer Ara Güler. As is known, according to the Quran, Noah’s Ark landed on Mount Cudi, while according to the Bible, it landed on Mount Ararat. In short, this mythical ark first appeared in Kurdistan. Barbro Karabuda and her companions prepared a documentary film about this subject, which was later shown on Swedish Television [8]. As it appears, in the early 1960s, Barbro Karabuda drew Swedish attention to Kurdish history and culture with these three works: her book about Kurds (1960), the documentary about Noah’s Ark and the Flood (1961), and the preparation of the interview with Kamuran Bedirkhan (1962).
Five years passed, and this year (2024) I remembered to find a copy of this documentary/interview and write something about it and introduce it. I asked journalist Beşir Kavak, who works at Swedish Radio, to help me find a copy of this documentary/interview. With the help of a friend, he retrieved a copy from Swedish Television archives and delivered it to me. I am very grateful to friend Beşir Kavak both for this assistance and for the translation of the following interview.
Interview With Kamuran Bedirkhan (1962)
Prince, it has always been very difficult to obtain accurate information about the number of Kurds in the Middle East. Let me ask you, how many Kurds live in the Middle East?
– The population of Kurdistan is 12 million. 6 million Kurds live in Turkish Kurdistan, 4 million in Iranian Kurdistan, and about 2 million in Iraqi Kurdistan. In Syria, there is also a significant minority of about 500,000 people.
Are there significant obvious differences between Kurds and their neighbors?
– I believe there are. Kurds are originally Indo-European, but their neighbors, for example, Turks are originally Altaic and Arabs are Semitic. There is a kinship between us and the Iranians or Persians because they are also originally Indo-European and our language is also an Indo-European language.
What is the political situation of Kurds in these countries?
– Kurdistan has been divided between three states: Turkey, Iran, and Iraq. In Turkey, the situation is very bad because the Turkish government even denies the existence of the Kurdish people. For a quarter of a century, they have gotten used to calling Kurds ‘mountain Turks’. In Iran, the situation is not like that. The Iranian government has never denied the existence of the Kurdish people. In Iran, there is a province called Kurdistan. It’s true that our demands for cultural and economic liberation of the Kurdish people have not yet been accepted, but at least the Iranian government doesn’t deny the existence of the Kurdish people. In Iraq, you know that after World War I, southern Kurdistan was annexed, it was claimed that Iraq, the Arab part of Iraq, was not economically viable without Southern Kurdistan and could not be defended militarily. However, Iraqi Kurdistan should have achieved its autonomy, according to the Treaty of Sèvres, or the British government’s declaration of 1922, or according to Article 3 of the 1958 constitution.
After the 1958 Iraqi revolution, it seemed that you Kurds liked Qasim?
– Yes, but it was the same in 1920 and 1919 when Turkey was fighting for its independence. The Kurds, with great loyalty, took the Turkish side. And during the preparation and negotiation of the Treaty of Lausanne, Mr. İsmet İnönü repeatedly said that Turkey was the country of two peoples: Turks and Kurds. However, when the difficulties passed, all these things were forgotten. The same policy was followed by Qasim. Initially, Qasim was not very confident in his position, so he allied with the Kurds to fight against anti-revolutionary elements. But when he believed his position was strong enough, he attacked the Kurds.
And today, what is happening in Iraq?
– Today there is war, but major battles have happened before. Today, almost all of Iraqi Kurdistan is under Kurdish control. The Kurds haven’t taken control of major cities in Iraqi Kurdistan, such as Mosul, Kirkuk, Sulaymaniyah, or Erbil to protect civilians from air attacks. I believe you know this because all world media have already reported on this topic. The Iraqi army, which cannot defeat Kurdish fighters, cowardly attacks civilian villages and kills women and children.
Who is Mustafa Barzani who leads the Kurdish movement in Iraq?
– Mustafa Barzani is the grandson of a very old and respected family from Southern Kurdistan. He was appointed as a general by the Republic of Mahabad, and one can say that he is truly the Kurdish national hero today.
Why is he called the red general?
– This is a very old story. In 1925, when the Kurds revolted against the Turkish government, Mustafa Kemal claimed that the British were behind the Kurds. At that time, Turkey was an ally of the Soviet Union. Today Turkey is an ally of the West, so General Gürsel didn’t hesitate to say: “We know who is behind Barzani”. I believe General Gürsel is my age, and at this age, one should be a bit more serious, shouldn’t they?
How many Kurdish soldiers are still in Qasim’s army fighting against Barzani’s Kurdish forces?
– There might now be up to 8,000 Kurdish soldiers, but it doesn’t appear they have been sent to fight against Kurdish forces, they are more in the border region toward Kuwait.
So, you are now only defending the Kurdish cause in Iraq?
– Yes, that’s right. Moreover, even in Iraq, as you well know, we want to respect territorial integrity, meaning the Kurds don’t want to separate from Iraq. But they want there to be an independent state within the framework of Iraq.
You visited America some time ago?
– Yes. I was in New York and Washington. I made contact with relevant circles, and I will go there again soon. The main aim is to try to send an investigation commission to Iraqi Kurdistan to document the genocides committed against the Kurdish people.
Did you request support from America?
– You certainly know that there is a statement from General Barzani in the New York Times, but I don’t know how accurate it is.
Is foreign aid absolutely necessary to achieve your goals?
– I cannot say that we are completely dependent on foreign aid. But for civilians who are now in a terrible situation, homeless, and facing the harsh winters of Kurdistan – after a month we will see 20 degrees below zero – we really request help from the world to support the affected Kurds whose number exceeds 100,000.
Is the current international situation favorable for Kurdish autonomy in Iraq?
– I believe we live in an era where all peoples of the world are becoming free. Therefore, I don’t understand why Kurds shouldn’t also gain their rights to autonomy.
If you achieve Kurdish autonomy in Iraq, what will be your possibilities for utilizing the oil on your land?
– Of course, there will be an agreement with the Iraqi government and oil companies. We are not impatient people as is claimed. We are only pursuing our rights. We want, like all peoples of the world, to have conditions for a humane and dignified life.
One has heard much about conflicts between Kurdish tribes. Can’t Kurds live together in peace?
– Of course, Kurds can live together, but all peoples have ideological differences. Look at the most advanced peoples of the world, you will see that there are always ideological differences and difficulties.
What is your personal role in the current Kurdish situation in Iraq, and what would your position be in a potential autonomy?
– Currently, I represent those Kurds who are fighting for their freedom. I make various efforts in Europe and America. When Kurdistan becomes independent, I will be one of the most modest citizens of this republic and this state.
Sources: [1] TV Intervju om Irak, Dagens Nyheter, 22-10-1962. [2] Rohat Alakom, Barbro Karabuda Kürtlerin Ülkesinde, Kürt Tarihi, nr 22/2016. [3] Rohat Alakom, Di Çapemeniya Swêdî de Dîroka Kurdistanê, Apec, 2019, p.47, footnote 98. [4] TV Rutan, Svenska Dagbladet, 23-2-1962. [5] Dagens Nyheter, 22-10-1962. [6] Barbro Karabuda, Öster om Eufrat-İ kurdernas land, 1960. [7] Güneş Karabuda, İndim Zaman Bahçesine, YKY, 1998. Gülseren Engström, Geçmişle Kolkola-Güneş Karabuda, Cem Yayınları, 2009. [8] Noak och syndafloden, Dagens Nyheter, 24-12-1961.
